ZMM Anecdotes, Stories, & Oral Histories.

… In my search for information concerning the historical locations of the sights and scenes of ZMM, many people had interesting anecdotes to tell.
…Below, you will find stories readers have sent to me about their encounters with Robert Pirsig’s ZMM boo,k and about what has been said in his famous book.
… Please enjoy! Signed Henry Gurr, ZMMQ SiteMaster.

From Charles B. Rosene
District Administrator
Unitarian Universalist Association
Oakland, CA 94609
…"I was in Cottonwood Canyon south of Bozeman Mt, spending the summer at my aunt and uncle's ranch - I was up the road visiting my friend Tina De Weese when she told me that we had to clear the house out because her parents were expecting old friends. As I was going out the front door, two motorcycles pulled up - it was Robert Pirsig and his son! They were on their way to their hike up to the end of Cottonwood Canyon to Highlight Lake [Hyalite Lake in Hyalite Canyon]. Heard after they left that it was a wild adventure - imagine my surprise to be reading about it [in Pirsig’s ZMM book] some eight years later!"

I, Henry Gurr, visited Gennie DeWeese and her daughters Gretchen & Tina Deweese In the Summer of 2002. A very nice Letter From Tinal DeWeese Is Here.

Carl Davidson
Networking for Democracy
Chicago, IL
…"I don't have any special knowledge, but I did take a trip in a van-camper with my teenage daughter one summer that crossed the plains, through Montana and Yellowstone, and into Northern California. That must have covered the same territory. I recommend Montana's Beartooth Pass to everyone. It descends into Yellowstone, then goes on into Idaho. Along the way is what I thought was the motel Pirsig mentioned, but I'm not sure. Keep me posted on the project."

From Wayne Booth
Professor and Former Chair of the University of Chicago’s Program: Ideas and Methods
University of Chicago (retired)

Dear Professor Gurr,

…Your message to [Frederick] Antczak led him to forward it to me, asking what I know about Pirsig. The truth is, nothing really. I read his book when it came out and liked it a lot--with reservations of course. I remember saying, when my wife asked me about it, that I wished I had written it. I never knew Pirsig, and I have no accurate memories about physical details that he remembers or invents for his story. My strongest memory is that my first hearing of the book was in a review in TLS (Times Literary Supplement), where it pointed out that the villain of the piece was the chairman of Ideas and Methods.[I and M] Since I was the chairman of I and M, I quickly bought the book and was relieved to see that the villain was McKeon, former chairman. I have no way of knowing how McKeon treated Pirsig, and for all I know P. did suffer some devastating questioning.

…McKeon was not by any means the villain that P. portrays, but his methods sometimes led students to feel that he was: his mind was on truth, or on his version of multiple truths, and he tended to overlook the psychological effects on students. It took a lot of courage and inner strength to live with (or under) him, and as the book would lead you to expect, many grad students, not just Pirsig, failed to finish because of feeling overwhelmed or mistreated. I would have to re-read the book to find details about which I might comment, and at the moment I am too much loaded with re-reading Anna Karenina, which I see as a considerably greater novel. But keep up the work. Pirsig deserves your attention.

[NOTE: Professor Frederick Antczak, University of Iowa, was a graduate of the Ideas and Methods Program at University Of. Chicago in the 1970's.]

[METADATA => X-Sender: wcbooth@nsit-imap.uchicago.edu
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:08:52 -0600
To: henryG@aiken.sc.edu
From: Wayne Booth <wcbooth@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: ZMM
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2001 02:05:34.0145 (UTC) FILETIME=[516B0B10:01C181E8] ]

A Very Interesting Note By Les Snavely, Bowman, ND, Found on Miles City Forums.

"Hi, I taught Philosophy years ago. I recommended the book, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" to my students. That was nearly 30 years ago, and I STILL get letters from them! Travelers [motorcyclists] from all over the world come to Bowman, North Dakota, for it is one of the places specified in the book. These people speak dozens of languages, but they all have one thing in common, to ride the whole length of the route laid out in the book. We never really know the effect of a Philosophy Class or of a philosophy book! Read on." Les Snavely" .....
Mr. Snavely’s Above Miles City Forum Post, Is 5th Down, In A Series Posts Discussing Robert Pirsig’s ZMM Book. Chick Here For May 12 2021 Version Shown On Archive.org.

Mr. Snavely is a very interesting guy!! He Really Likes The ZMM Book! I Found This Out When I Talked To Mr Snavely At The Big-J Restaurant, Of His Home Town Bowman ND.
…Here’s The Story => As part of every place I stopped => During my ZMM Route Research, I talked to practically every person I saw, telling them about my ZMM Route Research, and asking about local history, that might fit what Pirsig said in ZMM. At The Big-J Restaurant , one of the waitresses hearing what I was doing, and knowing that Les Snavely liked ZMM & Motorcycles, called, him with the news that I was there!
…He immediately showed up at this restaurant to meet me!! He is known all over the world as "Mr. Antique Motorcycle" !! I wish we could get him more involved in ZMM research and promotion! Here is my photo of him,
Click Here To See My Photo Of Les Snavely, "Mr. Antique Motorcycle" At The Big-J Restaurant , Bowman ND.
,
Click Here To Read About Les Snavely’s Antique Motorcycles.

Click Here To Read Les Snavely’s Obituary, And See A Good Color Portrait Of Him.

Mr. Neil Ritson, a ZMM Reader in England, Sends The Following => “Saying To Readers of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (ZMM),.Reading About Zen Is NOT Enough.

YOU MUST ALSO DO MEDITATION!!

…Accordingly I, Henry Gurr, strongly believe Neil Ritson has an important message for all ZMM readers! He gave me permission to post his email message to me. Also, I have also included small portions from several of Neil's subsequent emails.

Below Are Neil Ritson's "Reflections On 'Must Do MEDITATION ' in the Practice of Zen"
Henry Gurr
…………….

Dear Professor Gurr

Great of you to dedicate yourself to this! [Your ZMMQ Site.]

I read this [ZMM] when it came out - wow! - and then [I read] lots of Zen stuff.

BUT I have just now found out, through a mediation introductory with the Soto Zen School - Shasta Abbey, California and Throssel Hole, United Kingdom - that reading is no good -your readers need to do it first, as I did not!

Shikan-taza or just sitting - zazen - is dead easy at least at the beginning and can get you somewhere - but there is no escape from some teaching in a monastery. The monks are dead friendly and everything is relaxed -what a surprise!

Try the following: https://throssel.org.uk/

Since February 2006, I've got so much more out of life through Zen type meditation.

Cheers from over the pond. Neil Ritson
…………….

From Neil Ritson
Briar Dene Station Road
Brampton, Cumbria CA8 1EX

Dear Professor Gurr

PS - big PS - I by accident came across the Thai Forest Tradition of Theravada and wow! So similar to Zen - the actual tradition and monastic situation is different but the writings of Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Munindo are wonderful -just as good if not better than works like "Zen Mind Beginners Mind".

If you want references perhaps their sites can help - there is www.ratanagiri.org and www.amaravati.org as well as www.dhammathreads.org - all these names are approximate, sorry, but try them or use Google.

In extemis I could send you copies but the books are quite large.

PPS on your site you mention the Tao - so does Alan Watts' "Way of Zen" and to a great extent. But I think the Theravada tradition also used anatta - no self - as a basis for reducing dukkha - suffering, as you would see from the Ajahns' collected Dhamma talks referred to above.

Fond regards - in gassho and with metta!
…………….

At The University of Chicago: Where Is The "Enormous Wooden Round Table with The Crack Down The Middle"? By Henry Gurr ZMMQ SiteMaster.

… As part of every place I stopped => During my ZMM Route Research, I talked to practically every person I saw, telling them about my ZMM Route Research, and asking about local history, that might fit what Pirsig said in ZMM.
… At The University of Chicago => No one among the persons whom I have contacted at U. Chicago, seems to have any awareness of the "enormous wooden round table" or even the room across the street from a hospital, where the late afternoon sun from over the hospital roof hardly penetrated the window.

In My Search For Information Concerning The ZMM Book Descriptions Of The University Of Chicago. The Following Is The Text Of My Appeal For University Of Chicago Information. =>
… For as many persons as I could find => Below is a portion of my questions sent by email to University of Chicago staff and students with my requests for historical information.

Start Example Letter

Dear Professor (Rank and Name)

The following is a quote from the book “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” (chapter 29, page 326, Bantam New Age Edition): "The sessions on Aristotle were round an enormous wooden round table in a dreary room across the street from a hospital, where the late-afternoon sun from over the hospital roof hardly penetrated the window ... During the middle of the hour he noticed that this enormous table had a huge crack that ran right across it near the middle. It looked as though it had been there for years.” … '' "At the end of the hour he finally asked, May questions about Aristotle’s rhetoric be asked?"

From the several ZMM book clues offered, do you have any ideas about where this room may have been?

Or do you have any other ideas to offer? For example the place across the street to get coffee mentioned on top of page 346 in the Bantam New Age edition?

 The Ideas and Methods Program was the Graduate School Division that Pirsig attended while he was a student at the University of Chicago, 

UC Professor Frederick Antczak stated that the I & M program in those days was in Cobb Hall. Can you confirm this statement?

(plus other questions)

Sincerely Henry Gurr etc.

End Example Letter

A Summary of University of Chicago Ideas & Methods Faculty and Students, Five Of Whom, Responded to My Appeal Requesting Information Concerning ZMM.

…From a total sample of seven University of Chicago persons who replied to my request for information (see letter above), I found at least four persons (below) who probably do not have negative opinions about the book ~Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance~.

Frederick Antczak (Enthusiastic)

Wayne Booth (Enthusiastic)
Click Here For Archive.org Version Of "The Company We Keep In Ethics And Education", by Wayne Booth.

James Kastely (Neutral)

Charles Wenger (Was willing to be helpful.)
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/021107/wegener.shtml

A. K. Who Was At The Time, A University of Chicago Graduate Student (At First Enthusiastic, But Evolved to Very Negative)
…As I remember, back in ~2006, A. K. was initially quite positive about my work to investigate what Pirsig said in ZMM about the University of Chicago, the Ideas & Methods Program there, and Professor McKeon. These were events Pirsig says he experienced in the early 1960’s.
…However, after several emails later, A. K. became quite negative about ZMM. After which his email replies stopped.

In June 02: I, Henry Gurr, Visited Cobb Hall at the University of Chicago.

Cobb Hall faces a very large hospital (University of Chicago Medical Complex) which is across Ellis Street just north of 59th Street, Chicago IL. My Gallery Photos show this hospital and several of the round tables I was able to find. See my "Illustrated Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" which shows Photos of The University of Chicago Correlated With Scenes From ZMM Book. All of the round tables seem to have been taken out of Cobb Hall, but the Social Studies building (South East of Cobb Hall) had many rooms dominated by a single large round (or oval) conference room type table.

Do you have a ZMM oral history you would like to share?

Please contact:

Henry S. Gurr
Professor of Physics Emeritus
University of South Carolina Aiken
471 University Parkway
Aiken SC 29801
Email: henryg**aiken.sc.edu

Page Created By Henry Gurr Feb 18, 2005, Additions July 06, 2005, With Many additions up through July 25, 2012, then June 23, 2017.
…. Page Edited by Rosanna Willhite July 25, 2012, with DJM Edits November 23, 2012. AddMoreOfArticle&Links&FormatRevHSG13Jan24.
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