Interview with Kay Campeau, Bozeman, Montana, on Robert Pirsig, ZMM, MSC, and Bozeman, Montana -- the first week of August, 2014.

By Dennis Gary, BS, Montana State College, 1960; MS, University of Oregon, 1964

While attending the Gallatin County High School Reunion of the Class of 1956, which took place July 31 & August 1, 2014, Dennis Gary took the opportunity to visit several long time residents of Bozeman, Montana, and interview them, concerning their thoughts on Robert Pirsig, his book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (ZMM), and the influence of Bozeman, particularly the Montana State College campus, its faculty, and its history.

Below, please find, such an interview, with Kay Campeau at her home in Bozeman, Montana, in which I had the pleasure of being a guest the first week of August, 2014. Note, especially, the discussion of the political and educational malaise of the 1950's and '60s which educators in general, and Robert Pirsig, in particular, faced. Robert Pirsig writes an account of this in ZMM, from the point of view of his alter ego, Phaedrus, using Montana State as the setting.

Kay also discusses at length the concept of Quality of Life as put forth by Pirsig.
[And below gives quotes from ZMM, along with page numbers as follows =>
…In bold, are from Harper Modern Classics, 1999 printing.
…In (Parenthesis) are from Bantam Paper Back.
The page #’s given are tentative, pending further refinement.
…And rather than look for these “quotes” in a paper book, it might easier to access a ZMM Full Text on line here. And AFTER this page comes up, scroll down to “Christopher Bartneck’s Educational Philosophy WebSite”, and access this Full Text, which is the entire book on ONE WebPage,
..And then Do > Edit > Find ,,, This will give a larger ZMM Passage, and you can even read further, to learn the complete surrounding context. ]

Note: In this interview DG = Dennis Gary, KC = Kay Campeau.

DG: This is Dennis Gary. I'm sitting in the kitchen of Kay Gossack Campeau. I'm interviewing her on the behalf of Henry Gurr of the University of South Carolina emeritus who is interested primarily in Robert Pirsig and his book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which we will be referring to frequently as ZMM. Dr. Gurr is also interested in Bozeman, Montana, and Montana State College back in the mid-to late '50's and early 60's.
…Later on Ray Campeau, Kay's husband, may join us. He is an artist who studied in the MSC Art Department with the DeWeese’s while Cyril Conrad was the chairman of that department.
…My personal interest is primarily memories of and the history of Montana State College and Bozeman, Montana in that time, although I have read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Kay has some interest in both, I believe?

KC: Interest in the 50's at MSC and also Zen. I was an English major for awhile, in the '50's and, [in my classes] I don't think it [ZMM] was ever an assignment, but I did read ZMM several times, just because I thought it was an interesting book, not that I enjoyed it much, but it was a challenge. So I started . . .

Well, Dennis and I went to high school together, first of all, and we graduated in 1956. I then went away to school to study drama at the University of Washington during the '56 /57 school year. I came back to Montana State in the summer of 1957. Throughout that summer I was in numerous plays at Montana State College. Jack Barsness, an English teacher at MSC and brother of Larry Barsness, the founder/director of the Virginia City Players in Virginia City, Montana, recommended me to the players. That summer of 1957, I joined the players and the play continued to run on tour to the smaller Montana communities into fall session. Therefore, I didn't start at MSC until winter session 1958. I took quite a few English and theater classes.

I met and married my husband, Ray, who was studying in the Art Department. These two departments were closely knit with many faculty and students becoming good friends. The departments had cross interests with art students helping with sets and actors needing help with studying and cuing over coffee at the Student Union.

The DeWeeses became good friends and neighbors of ours. We both lived on Sourdough Road, had children of similar ages, and raised gardens from which we could share vegetables.

DG: Before we go any further, do we have permission to use your name, either in quoting you or if we transcribe the interview or turn it into a audio clip.

KC: That would be just fine.

DG: Briefly, I attended Montana State, and as Kay said, we both went to Gallatin County High School, and, in fact, the reason I came to Bozeman this week was to attend the 58th Year Reunion of the graduating class of 1956 at Gallatin High. And I'm fortunate to be a guest at her home. It's like living in an Art Museum, I might add. So, one of my favorite teachers was Sarah Vinke, and I think that Pirsig mentions her a number of times in ZMM. Do you remember Sarah at all?

KC: I never had a class from Sarah Vinke. When you say the name, what crosses my mind is Pirsig's speaking of her coming through his room, watering the plants and maybe talking about Quality, which, in my opinion, is a major focus of the book ZMM and of which after reading it several times, I have opinions.

DG: Did you ever take a course from Jack Barsness?

KC: Yes, I took Western Literature from Jack. I remember we read and discussed A.B. Guthries' Big Sky. Before taking this class I hadn't any interest in, maybe even distain, for "westerns." I was a self important teenager at the time. Study and discussions helped me realize that "Westerns" weren't the unimportant genre I had thought. We now, of course, have many fine Montana writers of western material

DG: Did you take a course from Pirsig?

KC: Pirsig? I never met him.

DG: John Parker.

KC: Yes, I took a poetry class from John Parker, and I thought he was an excellent teacher. . . On file, I have some of my papers and notes from college years. I don't know why I've kept them all this time. I could perhaps have saved some notes from Parker's class. I did enjoy John Parker and his class. He was a kind man.

DG: I believe he later headed the department.

KC: Did he?

DG: In any event, he also, on one occasion, delivered a paper by Robert Pirsig entitled "Quality in Freshman Writing" to the Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association in Bozeman, after Pirsig had left MSC for Chicago.

KC: Now, that I didn't know, and I didn't try to look that up on the Internet. I did try to look up Michael Sexton's treatise on Pirsig, but I didn't realize that Parker had done anything, and I don't know whether you can Google it or not.

DG: Let's see . . . who else was in the English Department back in the day. How about Verne Dusenberry? He wasn't mentioned in ZMM, but he is mentioned in LILA, the subsequent book by Pirsig.

KC:Ray and I both knew Verne Dusenberry.

Anecdotally, as a side story, Ray took a speech course from Kay Roberts, who was the wife of the drama director, Art Roberts, at Gallatin County High School. Their marriage was a secret, because at that time married women were not supposed to be teachers. Each quarter Mrs. Roberts would start the class with a lecture about how a person does not have to have a uvula to speak correctly. She would open her mouth and show the students how she did not have a uvula.
[The primary purpose of your uvula is to secrete saliva to moisten your mouth and throat.]

Although Ray liked Mrs. Roberts that opening class put him off to the point of immediately dropping the class. He transferred to the speech class Verne Dusenberry taught. Verne's class was an early morning class. Ray tended bar at night to try to make financial ends meet. Ray seldom made it to class, and when he did he was rarely on time. Verne very kindly helped Ray drop the class so Verne would not have to give Ray an F to be forever on his transcript.

DG: Verne taught one course called Approaches to Literature, which reflected Verne's interest in Anthropology. Personally, I was a little bit bored by it. But then, I was all of 20 years old. Now I might find the course fascinating, but then I didn't.

KC: I never took a course from Verne Dusenberry, but I, of course, liked the man because of how kind he was to Ray.

As I scanned your interview with Dave Swingle, I noticed you mentioned several Gallatin County High School teachers. I think we would be remiss if Art Roberts (Kay Roberts's husband) was left unnoticed. Mr. Roberts taught history; history that students never forgot because he would dramatically act out battle scenes, debates with props, costumes and all.

I never was fortunate enough to take a class from Mr. Roberts, but under his tutelage was awarded "The Best Actress In Montana" for three consecutive years at the annual Montana's State Interscholastic meet in Missoula. His direction matched and/or surpassed any I had at the college level.

DG: You seem to have a definite interest in Zen and the book by Pirsig. And perhaps you can also comment on some of the other people like the DeWeeses who are mentioned in the book.

KC: Okay. ZMM . . . I think I read it when it first came out because it was such a hit and because the DeWeeses are mentioned in it.. . Many of us on campus were reading it at that time for that same reason.

My opinion of it, the first time I read it, was pretty negative. And then I thought, well it's so popular, I should probably read it again. The book is only 430 pages long. It seems, however, to be much longer I think, because I found it a tedious book. The significance and the back and for between motorcycle maintenance, philosophy, parent/child, friend relationships was lost to me.

My intense interest lay in Pirsig’s notion and exploration of "Quality." I skipped parts of the book and focused on quality. I made notes and reactions and would be happy to share them if they would be pertinent to your research.

In a fast scan I come across (on page 426) a note [of mine], “the culture for beyond material success.”

I think Pirsig was way beyond his time because I think right now, in the past year, there has been a lot written about success not having a lot of money or having a lot of things, but having Quality of Life, and different authors have described or interpreted Quality of Life as some say, God, some say Tao . . . Wallace Stevens would, I think, say poetry . . .

My term for Quality of Life and general happiness or contentment is Cosmic Unity and/or Essence. I truly believe in a Cosmic Unity. And I think throughout ZMM that was what Pirsig was coming to, Quality of whatever you do, or have, or think . . . you need to do it to its Essence. You need to pay attention to it – and pay enough attention that it means something to you and make it a part of your Being and a part of your life and those that you touch, trying to share Quality and trying to share a Unity . . . a positive Unity.
…So after the second reading of ZMM, which was still tedious to get through, I decided Pirsig’s view of essence heightened my own view. He did a lot more thinking about essence and quality than he practiced. I thought he did not practice or live quality, essence, or empathy with others as much as he THOUGHT about having quality, understanding and essence.

DG: About specific episodes in the book, perhaps, like he discusses the parties of the DeWeeses’ when he comes through on his trip.

KC: Yes, I have memories of the parties. The people involved were fine, fine people. The English Department faculty, the Art Department faculty, some students, friends would get together at the DeWeeses. . . . Generally, the meal was pot luck, and we usually had a lot of good things to eat. But during those days we all smoked, and I remember smokey, smokey rooms and a lot of liquor.

It seemed that everybody was drinking and by the end of the evening everybody had drunk too much. Most of us have experienced the fact that the more people drink, the louder and more philosophical they become. I was only 20 years old. Perhaps some of the talk was important, but I was too young and inexperienced to appreciate it. Most of what I heard was a repetitious ramble.

I started having children and would have to get a baby sitter to go to these functions, and staying with my children was more important to me. The one person who was very interesting, when he would talk philosophically, was Jerry Rankin. This brilliant man went through a difficult period of alcoholism. He stopped drinking and smoking and now lives quietly producing marvelous art in Whitehall, Montana. If you can ever get him talking philosophically, he is wonderful to listen to.

DG: You mentioned smoking . . . are you talking about tobacco or marijuana?

KC: Oh, always just tobacco, never pot. No, back in those days, the '50's – well, maybe somebody had marijuana, but certainly none of the ones I knew.

DG: Sure. But I had to ask.

KC: Well, that's true, because times have changed. I and most of my friends smoked.

In '87 . . . I quit school in '64, and I had five children, The last play I was in was Dial M for Murder. I was pregnant with my fourth child, so I had . . . So I was involved in theater up through four children and then I quit and didn't go back to school until 1978. And my goal at that time was to get my degree before my oldest child, and I beat her by one year. I graduated in 1980, and she graduated in 1981.

DG: Looking back on what you thought about Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?

KC: Most of the people I know, who have read it, did not care for it.

DG: Anybody else on the college faculty . . .

KC:The director I liked best was Charles Billings. I think he was excellent. I think the genius of the group was James Duderstadt, but I think he was just an adjutant or maybe a guest for one quarter.

DG: They do not appear in the Pirsig's book, but they were in the department.

KC: Billings was in the Drama Department. Joe Fitch was head of the Drama Department, He was a fine director . . .

DG: Actually, when I was at MSC, they were all a part of the English Department.

KC: That's true.

DG: Times – they were a changing. Harry Hauser . . . I took Introduction to Philosophy from him, and he was in the History Department of all things . . .

KC: Harry Hauser was a fantastic teacher . . . a fantastic intellect. I took Ethics from him, and there just could not have been a better teacher.

DG: Pirsig does not mention him by name, but Roland R. Renne, was the president of the college that Pirsig referred to in several places . . . At any rate, times were changing at Montana State rapidly and from just having the reputation earlier in the century of being a “Cow College,” it was really on its way to becoming a full fledged university, and a lot of really good people were there.

KC: Dr. Renne made sure that the school was on a positive curve. He was a brilliant man who was quite liberal, and that got him into trouble, I think. Of course, right before that was the McCarthy era and so I think the time we're talking about was a little after the McCarthy . . .

DG: Well, the John Birch-er's were on the move at that time. And actually McCarthy was very active in the early to mid '50's.

KC: John Birch-er's were on the move, and they were pretty powerful in this state. Our present day Tea Partyers may have taken over the Bircher goals . . . Long ago, I remember a large road sign outside of Lewistown, Montana saying, "Happiness is being a Bircher."

DG: Maybe, just a couple of incidents occurred at Montana State, and you may have been elsewhere at the time . . . In the spring of 1958, Dr. Dunbar, or rather a group he represented, had invited Eleanor Roosevelt to speak on campus, and Dr. Renne banned her from speaking on the campus and so she spoke at the Willson Auditorium downtown, and I don't know if you have any memories of that or not?

KC: I'm sorry. I don't have memories of that. It sounds like . . . it doesn't ring true to me because Dr. Renne was such a liberal and of course, Eleanor Roosevelt was too. And I remember Marian Anderson coming to town and not being able to sing because she was black. I wouldn't know why Dr. Renne would not let Eleanor Roosevelt on campus.

DG: We have, on the ZMMQ website of Dr. Gurr, a Monograph by Bob Dunbar of the History Department, who I think you remember, too.

KC: I remember him very well.

DG: And he . . . and Dunbar's explanation was that Renne was trying to protect Montana State and there were a lot people opposed to Eleanor Roosevelt speaking at the time, of her connection with the United Nations, and the McCarthy-ites felt that made her a Communist and stuff like that.

But Dunbar describes events through the early '60's, and he recounts that Leslie Fiedler of the University of Montana had been invited by the American Federation of Teachers to speak on the campus, and Dr. Renne would not give permission for him to speak . . . so, as with Eleanor Roosevelt, he gave his talk off campus instead. And I attended Fiedler's talk way back then, and what is your take on Fiedler being banned from the campus?

KC: That makes more sense to me now you're talking about it, because essentially Bozeman is a very conservative community. Night before last at our reunion, yours and mine, 1956 Gallatin High class reunion, Nancy Davis Davies, a classmate of ours got up and said, "I'm the only person here tonight from Texas. Only four people from Texas voted for Obama in 2008 and I was one of them!." She got boo-ed. And so even right now, you can tell that Bozeman is a very conservative area, and I think that the University of Montana in Missoula is considered the liberal college, and we at Montana State University are the conservative college, and probably Dr. Renne was protecting the college because the community is so conservative.

DG: Dr. Dunbar felt that it was because Fiedler was thought to be homosexual . . .

KC: During those days that could possibly have been a reason.

DG: Fiedler was married with children. But he had written an essay on homo-eroticisim in American literature entitled Come Back to the Raft Ag'in, Huck Honey. Fiedler had also written an essay for the Partisan Review sometimes referred to as The Montana Face and other times entitled Montana, or the End of Jean Jacques Rousseau. I don't know whether you ever read that or not?

KC: I didn't.

DG: This is an over simplification, but Fiedler more or less stated that Montana would have a split personality until it could reconcile the noble savage of the Montana rodeo with the dirty Indian of the Montana reservation. He stated that like the Negro to the South, exploited for tourist purposes, but denigrated in all other situations, so the Montana Indian.

He also contrasted the Montana cowboy of Roy Rogers, Gene Autry fame, with the cowpoke who came in off the range to Missoula, Montana, on Saturday night, got dead drunk, and staggered into the nearest whore house. And some dentist on the State Board of Regents said, “We don't pay Leslie Fiedler to write those kind of things about Montana.”

KC: That was a long time ago, and I think things have changed, and I think things have changed for the better.

DG: I think it was another factor in Renne's concern.
…But shortly before that, Bayard Rustin, who later ended up in the civil rights movement and was a pacifist, but also, had had a morals charge lodged against him in southern California, involving a gay incident . . .

At the time Dr. Renne, when the American Legion or the VFW objected to Rustin appearing on campus, Dr. Renne had said something to the effect, “He was invited six months ago. One week before he is scheduled is not an acceptable time . . . you should have objected when Rustin was first invited. Besides there's no student on the Montana State campus who shouldn't be prepared to deal with both Communism and homosexuality.” But Renne felt a great deal of pressure for that.

KC: Yes. And I'm sure . . . I don't remember any of that.

DG: So Dr. Dunbar was saying there were reasons for Renne's stands, but in earlier times, when Dunbar was threatened, Renne stood up for him such as when Dunbar was proposing in the late '40's and early '50's that we should seek cooperation with the Soviet Union, not the destruction of the Soviet Union . . .

KC: And this was when?

DG: Around 1950. He got a lot of flack for that.

KC: I'm forgetting what year Renne ran for governor . . . but he lost, of course.

DG: 1964. I was just talking about this Dunbar problem then. … And later on, Dunbar spoke [on radio KBMN] of other topics related to International Relations, and Malcolm Story demanded equal time on KBMN. Malcolm said in his broadcast that if the State Board of Regents didn't fire Robert Dunbar, a vigilante committee should. Considering what vigilante's had done in Montana, and in fact, Nelson Story, the Story family patriarch, was involved . . . it was indeed, a threatening statement.

At any rate, Dr. Renne requested police protection for both Malcolm Story and Robert Dunbar at that time. So it was an era of . . .

KC: I knew Malcolm Story very well.

DG: What was he like?

KC: Oh, he was a funny little man. Our son, Tony, was Malcolm Story's paperboy. Malcolm lived a few blocks from us, and he would come over and chat. He loved to talk about old times. He was very articulate, as was his daughter who is a good friend of mine still . . . Martha Drysdale was Malcolm's daughter. And Malcolm would come by here and he would tattle on my son, Tony, because Tony perhaps was lighting matches in the alley. So Malcolm would come by and tattle.

And he would not pay our son, Tony, his wages unless Tony wrote out a very precise bill, and he had to call himself “Master Anthony Campeau” before he could get paid from Malcolm because Malcolm was trying to teach him to do everything just right. . . Malcolm was quite a character.

DG: Perhaps when we're headed up toward campus some time, Dr. Gurr is interested in the house that Malcolm lived in . . .

KC: Oh, we'll go right by it and it's still pink, and the story is that it's pink because his wife's name was Rose. It's not in the family any more but the people who purchased the house kept it pink.

DG: So Kay, what have you got to say about Robert Pirsig's book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and the concept of “Quality?”

KC: I had read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance when it first came out in the 70's, and, of course, I was quite young then, and then when it came to prominence again in the last few years, I reread it, and I thought, "There's a lot more to this than I remember back in the 70's." Quite a few philosophical ideas, methods and such are addressed by Persig, but to me the focus of the book is on "Quality," what it is and how it can be explain and used. As I read I jotted notes, maybe not notes, just ideas, underlines. Most are just areas for discussion..

These areas are pertinent for discussion if a class wanted to select them or if a person were interested in the idea of Quality from Pirsig's book, as it's defined and discussed in ZMM. If someone wants to think or meditate more on these quotes or ideas, I am supplying page numbers.

KC: My reaction to that was I've been thinking quite a bit recently about the unity of all and the terms that I like particularly are "Essence" and “Cosmic Unity.” And so that is what I had written in the margin by that quote.

KC: If you'll go to those pages it will elaborate on exactly what those terms mean, but they meant quite a bit to me as I was reading them. And then . . .

KC: I think these are all rehashes of old topics, and we've, those of us who have been in literature and studied philosophy, have heard them all, and we've talked about them a lot. But then towards the end of the discussion of these various things there is a quote and it comes from Pirsig, and it says ,

I think it would be easy and interesting to have a discussion about that.

Go on to . . .

KC: So it is implied that Buddha was that central underlying Quality between the opposites.

KC: I thought that was simple and important.

KC: And those aren't Pirsig's words, those are another philosophers. But here again good sources for good discussions if you ever are in a classroom discussing this.

KC: Boy, you get a batch of kids discussing that, and I think you'd have a good class period.

KC: My comments after reading the book the second time, very briefly, are I think that Pirsig was way ahead of his time in our shifting culture, shifting from success being defined by money and stature. And I think we're shifting to a oneness with others, with our environment, with our community, a personal peace of knowing and doing good on and to others, and to the self, and to the earth.

But then, again, I live in Bozeman, Montana. If I lived in Afghanistan or Israel or Palestine, my outlook might be different. But as a person in the United States, I believe our cultural shift is moving in that direction.

DG: Thank you very much, Kay. Before we sum things up, can you tell us what edition of ZMM you've used, since page numbers may vary a bit?

KC: Harper Modern Classics, 1999 printing.

I'm thinking that a book that has recently come out that talks about what success really is, is a book by Michael Lewis called Flash Boys. It's not out in paperback yet, but it talks about what success is as opposed to what success used to be.

DG: Anything else you would like to say about ZMM?

KC: As a piece of literature, I thought it was interesting philosophically; as a piece of fiction, I didn't care for it much.

DG: And do you think it's influenced your life? Has the concept of Quality proved helpful in your life?

KC: Perhaps it has reinforced what I already thought. I don't think it's changed anything I thought.

The reason I read it to begin with is because, of course, Pirsig travelled through Montana, and he met our friends the DeWeeses and I've known them well. And they have that basic . . . they're role models for having a good life, for being happy, and doing what they think is right.

DG: I think Ray talks about DeWeese giving him a way of lifestyle he liked as much as anything else.

KC: Yes. Ray had two role models, and they both were artists, and they both enjoyed what they were doing, and they were fulfilled with doing what they were doing rather than going to a job and getting paid for eight hours a day doing something they didn't want to do.

DG: Oh, I've known that feeling over the years. I spent many years doing things I hated in order to pay the rent. Retirement and working on Henry Gurr's website and a separate memoir writing project have proven most fulfilling, in contrast to working seven awful years for Crocker Bank and being put down for not being a “yes man,” despite the fact that I, on several occasions, improved the bank's operations I toiled in.

I want to thank you for spending this time with me, Kay. And I want to thank you on behalf of Henry Gurr.

KC: You are welcome, Dennis.

The pleasure has been mine, first to review my thoughts about ZMM, but also to renew our acquaintanceship.

Comments, Questions, Suggestions Regarding This Interview Are Welcomed.
Please send an email to HenryG__USCA.edu (insert the appropriate symbol).
…We would appreciate your permission to add your comments to this page, should we choose to do so.

We Are Saddened To Report That Robert Dennis Gary Passed Away In Jan 9, 2020, Likely From Covid19. You May Read About His Life Here => A Robert Dennis Gary Memorial Tribute Page & Autobiography : ALSO PLEASE SEND EMAIL To HenryG__USCA.edu With Your Memories Of Dennis. Click Here.

Links To Additional Reading Related to the Events Described Above:

1) A Student’s Memories of “Mrs.” Professor Sarah Vinke and Her English Department at Montana State College, Bozeman MT (1956-1960)

2) Pirsig Memory, “The Divine Sarah”

3) The Sarah Vinke Biography Resource Page (SVBRP), Having Extended Information About Sarah Vinke’s Life & Times.

4)
Howard Dean, Nemesis to Robert Pirsig while Teaching in the MSC English Department

5) Shirley Luhrsen and Sarah Vinke: Letters to and from Bozeman.

6) “THREATS TO ACADEMIC FREEDOM AT MONTANA STATE COLLEGE” (MSC) This Document, Recreated Below, Is A 1977 Monograph By History Professor Robert G. Dunbar, Montana State College, Which Is Now Montana State University.

7) ” …a "radical" in Gallatin County, Montana, is a little different from a radical somewhere else." The Eleanor Roosevelt Affair.

8) Mr Dennis Gary’s Memories of The Late 1950’s Montana Political Situation:“Ultra Conservatives” +”Senator Joe McCarthy-Ites”,vs “Political Radicals“

9) MSC President Roland R. Renne

10) “Montana; or the End of Jean-Jacques Rousseau.” The Leslie Fiedler essay in the Partisan Review which angered a member of the University of Montana Board of Regents

11) Pirsig, MSC, and Zen, a selection from In the People's Interest, A Centennial History of Montana State University

12) A Brief Biography of Sarah Jennings Vinke, Found in the Burlingame Special Collections, Montana State University Bozeman

13) Sarah Vinke’s Passing [BOZEMAN DAILY CHRONICLE January 31, 1978. From Obituary Page 10.2]

14) MSC Instructor Asks Probe Over Budget Issue [BOZEMAN DAILY CHRONICLE April 4, 1961]

15a) Photos of Faculty, Administrators, and Students at Montana State College: 1956-1960
15b) Further Photos of Faculty, Administrators, and Students at Montana State College: 1956-1960

16) Interview with David Swingle, Museum of the Rockies, Bozeman, Montana, on Robert Pirsig, ZMM, MSC, and Bozeman, Montana

17) 'Click Here, To View 10 Photos Of Dennis Gary’s Laptop Computer “Daily Work Arena” at San Francisco’s Internet Accessible ''H2O Café '.
...Here you may see an additional self portrait of Dennis Gary, created by Dennis himself, using the Camera of his Laptop Computer.

Interview, transcription, editorial material by Dennis Gary posted 12 Oct. 2014, revised 13 Oct. 2014, 20 Oct. 2014

RevHSG15Nov2023.

File= DennisGaryInterviewWithKayCampeau FmServerHsgRev06.doc
PrevFile=NoneLookedFor.