Here Are The Views of Two Montana State College Students, Concerning Their Participation In Robert Pirsig's English Class(s) Fall 1959 or Spring 1960.

Interview 1: A Cowboy's Wife Gives Her Own View of Professor Robert Pirsig and His English Class At Montana State College, Now Montana State University.

Phone Interview Transcript (Name Withheld By Request), Bozeman MT, January 8, 2012, Conducted by Henry Gurr.

NOTE: This interview took place, in real time, prior to the corresponding interview of her husband, which you find below. For this reason, and also since her statements explain her husband's interview statements , I have placed the Wife's Interview first.

This is a transcript of a telephone interview with the wife of a former student of Robert Pirsig. She mentions events which she herself observed as well as those concerning her husband. These took place in Montana Hall English Classes on the campus of Montana State College during Robert Pirsig's years of teaching there, Fall 1959 thru Spring 1961. Back at this time, my informants were students at Montana State College, now Montana State University.

After introducing myself and the nature of my Robert Pirsig “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” (ZMM) Research, I asked my informant's permission to audio record her statements. She gave permission. I turned on the Panasonic Telephone Answering Machine on "two way", and my informant, having some knowledge of my ZMM research from her daughter, knew how to proceed. Editing changes, to increase clarity, are shown in [brackets].

My informant’s daughter's name, often entered our conversation, because my informant’s daughter was originally most helpful in setting up these two interviews. In fact it was the most fortunate discovery of => The daughter's statement on The Miles City, MT Internet Forum Click Here, where she said that “My dad was in Pirsig's English class”. This one sentence, enabled a series of events that lead to the words you read below.

Strange are the connections of this world! Tug at a tiny thread, or push open the small crack in the door, and a whole new world opens up!
…So if you, dear reader, see any ZMM / Pirsig “hints & leads” like this ANYWHERE, please let me know IMMEDIATELY!!) And finally, so as not to reveal the identity of these persons, the daughter's name has been replaced by [daughter] in this transcript.

Interview statements:
Cowboy’s Wife: I didn't ever know him well. I had a class across the hall, and I just .... very frankly I thought him pretty boring to listen to, from across the hall. I heard of a lot of kids complained a lot about the assignments. My husband was actually in his class. One of the examples of ... he had them write an essay on their thumb nail. And I guess the purpose of it was supposed to get them to narrow their topic down instead of trying to writing about a real broad topic, and keep it focused [the assignment on] small things. And this was one of the things that struck the other students as really dumb.

ZMMQ: (Here I gave a summary of why Professor Pirsig (as stated in ZMM) assigned this writing exercise. I explained he wanted his students to write from their own direct experience instead of "pie in sky" generalizations. Such exercises, as mentioned in his book, seemed to give a lot to write about.
Anyway, continue…

Cowboy’s Wife: Basically at that time, he [Pirsig] was working on a book, at least he said he was writing a book about Charlie Russell. And he had the students doing research and writing. Now maybe he was working on a book, maybe he wasn't, I don't know. But they were assigned different topics to write about. .....

ZMMQ: (Here I asked who Charlie Russell was.)

Cowboy’s Wife: You don't know who Charlie Russell Was!! He was one of the most famous painters in the US who painted Western Art in a very characteristic way. You can tell [his paintings] if you know what you are looking for. [For example, you can tell by looking at his paintings what tribe of Indians are being encountered or [horse or cattle] brand marks. [Somebody] has looked up the brands on the horses and they are all authentic. Or [you can, by the look of persons shown in the painting, actually identify] who he was working for [person posing as model] at the time.

ZMMQ: So, the students had to do different essay on certain paintings?

Cowboy’s Wife: Not so much paintings, I didn't know what the assignments were, other that my husband was sent to interview Doc Nelson who was the guy riding the horse in the painting “Bronc For Breakfast”. Whether this was a doctor or just called him Doc, I have no clue. But he was the guy who was riding the horse in Bronc For Breakfast. And the interview was not about what his life had been, but [my husband was to ask] what it was like sitting in a rest home waiting to die. And my husband was very upset about that because he would have loved to do [an] interview, you know, more about what his life was like when he was with Russell. That type of thing. So what could he write about [concerning] someone sitting in a rocking chair sitting in the rest home?

ZMMQ: So your husband wanted to write something quite different?

Cowboy’s Wife: Right. .... Well I can't think of anything else right now. I have read the book Zen and the Art of Motor Cycle Maintenance because, when [my daughter] mentioned having ... well maybe it was when she had met you, I don't remember…

ZMMQ: (I replied that I had corresponded with [your daughter] about three weeks previous, on [name omitted] Internet web pages. From this, my informant realized I was not the person and restarted her explanation.)

Cowboy’s Wife: She [my daughter] met somebody when she was doing her Master’s degree at University of Kansas. She encountered somebody who knew Pirsig or had worked with him or I don't remember. And the conversation [re: ZMM] came up then. [This] was one of the books that they had to [read] In fact, I think the Professor had said, "I bet nobody has ever heard about this guy before," you know. And she [my daughter], looked at her [the professor] and said "Oh, yes I have!" [My informant's laughter]

ZMMQ: So, the Professor was surprised to hear that [your daughter] knew of him [Pirsig]?)

Cowboy’s Wife: Yes. She had read to read the book, and she mentioned it to me. So, I went to the library and read it.

ZMMQ: When was that?

Cowboy’s Wife: Oh good heavens! Probably .... [let me think] where we were at the time ... 10 or 15 years ago.

ZMMQ: So, were you surprised about what Pirsig said about his teaching or classroom experience or anything like that?

Cowboy’s Wife: No, I just thought the book was sort of dumb-like. I was not impressed by the book. Of course, you have to understand that I'm not impressed with motorcycles [laughter]. In the end, I've read something [about ZMM] in books since then .... that I have no clue what it [was about] .... I just don't remember it.

ZMMQ: So, at the time it seemed somewhat off base, kind of dumb and off the wall? And what he said about the classroom experiences in the book you don't remember too well.

Cowboy’s Wife: I don't remember.

ZMMQ: So, you don't remember whether the book fit the classroom experience at the time?

Cowboy’s Wife: Right.

ZMMQ: (Here I explain that ZMM is widely acclaimed as an important book, and hence my efforts to collect the living memories of persons who have known Mr. Pirsig.)

Cowboy’s Wife: You have to understand that when I went into reading it, I was a little bit prejudiced to start with. I already thought the guy was boring, [and] it's not that I expected a lot from the book. [Laughter] I certainly would not class it among my top favorite books.

ZMMQ: Yes, that's true for lots of people. I'm just trying to explain why I am spending so much time on this. .... So you thought Pirsig was boring and thus you did expect much from the book.

Cowboy’s Wife: Right. ..... I just don't know if there is anything else I can tell.

ZMMQ: You mentioned one writing exercise, where there any others?

Cowboy’s Wife: Not that I know about. You have to realize this was before my husband and I were married. We were just going together.

ZMMQ: Yes, that was a long time ago!! ... You mentioned a little bit what the class was like, were there any loud noises or disruptions or noises coming out of the class room?

Cowboy’s Wife: Not anything un normal or unusual, let’s put it that way.

ZMMQ: So, no unusual noises?

Cowboy’s Wife: No.

ZMMQ: You mention Pirsig being boring, but in the book Pirisg mentions that the students thought he was intense or frightening. Any recollection of that?

Cowboy’s Wife: No, but like I say, I never had him as an instructor.

ZMMQ: But it would have gotten to you if this was true. .... Any recollections as to how the other students liked him?

Cowboy’s Wife: I never heard anybody get real excited about him as a professor or recommend others take his class or anything like that.

ZMMQ: But, in reverse, did they say it was bad and tell others to stay away from it?

Cowboy’s Wife: Well, I think that those who took it was because it was a required class, without much choice of professor.

ZMMQ: Yes, required class, so not much choice?

Cowboy’s Wife: Yes.

ZMMQ: Of course, in some university classes, you can pick the time and steer around that way. But, basically most students would not try to change. .... He talked about the Bozeman area and people in Bozeman, any recollections about that?

Cowboy’s Wife: Well, I grew up 30 miles from Bozeman, I know and remember a lot about Bozeman, but nothing that relates to him.

ZMMQ: What about people off campus. Did they say anything about him?

Cowboy’s Wife: No.

ZMMQ: We have been talking about what happened a long time ago on the Bozeman campus and your classes and you have talked about your experience of Pirsig as a professor. Have other people talk about him more recently?

Cowboy’s Wife: Other than that from [my daughter], I haven't heard his name mentioned since I left college. That was 13 kids and 27 grandkids ago!

ZMMQ: (My laughter) Well you certainly have had a very successful life! ... So you have not heard about Pirsig since college, except for [your daughter].

Cowboy’s Wife: Right.

ZMMQ: It just occurs to me that I should talk to [your daughter] to find out more of her experiences. ... Any thing else you can think of?

Cowboy’s Wife: [no response here.]

ZMMQ: Pirsig mentioned another professor at your campus, Sarah Vinke. So, you remember her?

Cowboy’s Wife: (Laughter) I never actually had her for a class. I knew who she was. I remember her yes.

ZMMQ: Students saw her favorably and things like that?

Cowboy’s Wife: I think they did. The only thing I can remember for sure is..... and this was by hearsay, I never heard it, the hearsay was that she told her classes that anyone who would bring her a jar of water melon rine pickles would get an "A" in the class!

ZMMQ: (My laughter) ..... Now that's good oral history!.... Pickles ..... and get an "A". That's a good addition because I was going to write to the Montana State University Bozeman Alumnae association, and see if their magazine would solicit other Sarah Vinke stories. Especially, I wanted to follow up on Pirsig statements in ZMM. He stated that Sarah had emphasized to him how Ancient Greeks were so into Arete, zest for life and proceeding with high quality living and following one’s highest ideals. According to ZMM, Sarah had emphasized this, what he called Quality, a great deal to Pirsig, which you might remember from the book. Any recollections on this, or from Sarah?

Cowboy’s Wife: No.

ZMMQ: (Sensing we are at the end of this interview) I'm going to type-up a transcript of this discussion and will send to you a copy, for suggestions and editing and any improvements you may care to make.( I stated my desire to place a copy of the transcript on my website, and ask if that would be any problem with her?)

Cowboy’s Wife: Well, I would rather not have my name attached.

ZMMQ: That would be quite agreeable.

(At this point the voice recording stopped because its memory was full. I thanked my informant for all her help, and told her that it was a great pleasure to work with her, and learn of experiences of Mr. Pirsig and MSC back then. I said I would call later for her husband's interview after I had transcribed this recording. I told her about my webpages and suggested that when she was at the library (to use computer) that she ask the librarian to help her find my webpage should she be interested. Again, I thanked my informant for all her help as I said goodbye.)

(Most certainly future generations, for even centuries, will be most thankful that my informant was willing to let us know her unique experience of Robert Pirsig. We are most appreciative of my informant's careful, but frank opinions of her experiences and observations of her husband's English Professor back then.)

[Thank you,!! Thank you!! Thank you!!
Henry Gurr, 19 January, 2008.]

Interview 2: A Cowboy's View of Robert Pirsig's 's English Class At Montana State College, Now Montana State University.

Phone Interview Transcript (Name Withheld By Request), Bozeman MT, January 12, 2008, Conducted by Henry Gurr.

This is a transcript of a telephone interview with former student of Robert Pirsig. The events mentioned took place in Montana Hall English Classes on the campus of Montana State College during Robert Pirsig's years of teaching there, Fall 1959 – Spring 1961. After introducing myself and the nature of my Robert Pirsig ZMM Research, I asked my informant's permission to audio record his statements. He gave permission. I turned on my Realistic Tape Recorder attached to the phone line. (The first part of the discussion was not tape recorded because I pressed the wrong button. So the words below, up to the point where the recorder was turned on, are my reconstruction from memory and my notes.)

My interview questions and contributions are in (parenthesis). My editing changes and additions, to increase clarity, are shown in [brackets]. I have underlined words my informant, or I, stated with more emphasis. Also I tried, insofar as possible with a keyboard, to write our my informants actual manner of speaking and word cadence. The first part of this Interview is reconstructed from HSG memory and notes, because tape recorder was off inadvertently.

My informant, having been briefed by his wife, knew how to proceed. In fact, because of this, my informant started immediately with a discussion of his assignment, by his English Professor Pirsig => To interview the Cowboy, Doc Nelson, whose likeness appears in many of the works of western art by famous painter, Charlie Russell.

Interview Statements.
Cowboy: What can I say? .... Not much. ..... But about the assignment to visit [interview] Doc Nelson, and write that up. Doc Nelson was the cowboy shown in the Charlie Russell paintings “Bronc For Breakfast”. and “Chasing Diamond-O Steer”. You know …... a bronc will do just about anything and this one just came plowing over the campfire. The Steer had that name because of a Diamond and O shape on his flank [as shown in the painting]. If you know your Indians, you can tell [from Russell's painting], what tribe they are from.

ZMMQ: ( I mentioned that Mrs. had said the Doc Nelson interview was a less than interesting assignment.)

Cowboy: I don't remember that. But I do remember he [Pirsig] was doing a book on early western US, especially early Montana history. Each member of the class was assigned to research (and write up) an assigned period of time, a 25 year slice of history, or something like that. Examples for our research were, the finding of gold, Virginia City [Montana], the territorial capital, or the early gold mining in Montana.

ZMMQ: I suppose also things like the early setters, the Bozeman trail, cattle drives, etc?

Cowboy: Yes. ... We did know something of Montana history, but history wasn't very important to us students.

(At this point in the discussion, my informant, in talking about Montana History, reminded me of a novel recently given to me by Shirley Luhrsen of Bozeman. I needed the book's name, so I excused myself from the telephone to get it, at which time I realized the recorder was not working. I properly started it. Then I said => )

ZMMQ: The book is "Yester Years Western Trek" an adventure novel by Don Pierre, an English Professor of Montana State University Bozeman. The first part is written like a wagon train trail diary, further along the story, involves the history of The Bozeman Trail, the migrations to Virginia City, and the Gold Mines. Pierre writes into his novel some of the prominent merchants of Virginia City and Bozeman, such as Nelson Story, John Bozeman, and historical characters like that. You might be interested!
.... So the writing assignments you mentioned were a research paper about a certain part of Montana history?

Cowboy: That's right.

ZMMQ: In ZMM, Pirsig talks about his in-class writing exercises, and The Thumb Nail Exercise was mentioned. I wondered if you were aware of any others?

Cowboy: Well its been such a long time, that I can't really remember a lot about what we did in class. But he was kind of a .... what do you want to say .... a dull dry ..... Easterner.

ZMMQ: (My laughter). .... Yah, except he grew up in Minneapolis, so he couldn't have been TOO much of an Easterner! But nevertheless, he came across as a stuck up Easterner, huh?

Cowboy: Well ..... in a lot of ways ..... Yah.

ZMMQ: Hmm …. yes, I can imagine there's enough distance between the Western sense of Montana and Eastern sense of Minneapolis, because he was surely a city type person and that certainly would have been different from Bozeman.

Cowboy: That's right. That's right. And maybe that's what it was, is the fact that he was definitely a city dude and .... enthralled by the western atmosphere and what was going on out here, and it was ho-hum to us, you know.

ZMMQ: And so for you to research and write about the western experience, you didn't have to do that, you lived it already!

Cowboy: Well, yes and no. I mean early history; understand, we were just young people, and we didn't know a lot about the western history at that point in time. But, by the same token, if you wanted a grade out of the class, that's what you did.

ZMMQ: I know what you mean.

Cowboy: You jump through the hoop. .....

ZMMQ: So, it wasn't a very thrilling excitement assignment that you remember. And apparently you weren't too thrilled, according to Mrs., with your interview of Doc Nelson, etc.

Cowboy: Well, that isn't right. Because I was …. Yah …. I was into ….. OK ….. Western Cowboys and that kind of stuff. And in High School I read a lot Charlie Russell stories. And, gee whiz, Doc Nelson, the guy who rode “Bronc For Breakfast”. , I was kind a very well taken by that. But, by the same token, I wasn't very much taken by Pirsig, I mean, when you sign up for a class, its kina, ketch as ketch can. And, by the same token, along the same line is the fact that you have to have some English. I'd rather be taking mechanics or something of that nature. But like I say you gotta jump thru the hoop to try to get a degree.

ZMMQ: Right. So you had a lot of interest in Cowboys in High School and you read a lot about the Russell Paintings? Or had read stories?

Cowboy: I read stories, There's "Trails Plowed Under" and I think there's probably four books that Charlie wrote.

ZMMQ: OK, so this Charlie Russell, not only did paintings, he wrote books, or novels about the West.

Cowboy: Well, I won't say he wrote 'em. But somebody took a collection of …. OK …. like his letters, and they would publish them and made a book out of it. There were a lot of Western History books and Western Stories you know.

ZMMQ: So that particular assignment potentially could be pretty interesting, but Mrs. [name withheld] said that Pirsig had wanted you to write about Doc Nelson's life in the [old age] rest home, rather than any of his earlier experiences with Russell or things like that.)

Cowboy: I don't remember that I had to write about his life in the rest home.

ZMMQ: Well that's what her memory was and is probably valid. ..... So any other writing tasks or other things he had you do, that you remember?)

Cowboy: Well, man .... let’s see what was it? …. Harpers Magazine! We had to read articles in Harpers Magazine and we had to write, I forget what it was, ..... read an article and write about the article.

ZMMQ: So, these were literary stuff, it may have been short stories or something like that?

Cowboy: That's right.

ZMMQ: But you don't remember the gist of any one of the stories?

Cowboy: Oh no.

ZMMQ: But pretty typical of whatever was in Harpers?

Cowboy: Yah …. but trying to go back and remember ..... But trying to remember any story in Harpers, ..... I couldn't try to remember [even] after class!

ZMMQ: Yes, like you said earlier, things were boring, and not too close to your interest, and you did what you had to do. .... So it was the run of the mill things that would have been Harpers and they were probably short stories. Were you able to choose the story you wanted or he give you a specific one?

Cowboy: As I remember, there were particular, I mean that was the assignment, you had to read that and write an essay about it. He picked out something.

ZMMQ: And the whole class had to do the same story. And your general impression of these assignments was, well just go ahead and do it? Well this is kinda what happens in an English class and you went along with it but not too exciting or memorable. But maybe not too awful either, or dumb.

Cowboy: Well I won't say it wasn't dumb, because like I say, he was, as far as we were concerned he was an Easterner and of course we didn't know where he came from [in these assignments] .

ZMMQ: (My laughter.) In other words, he did not tell you very much about himself?

Cowboy: No, he didn't.

ZMMQ: OK, so you just saw these different-like city ways and just rolled your eyes?

Cowboy: That's right.

ZMMQ: So, what of your other classmates? What were they thinking through this time?

Cowboy: Oh .... I don't know .... as I recall thinking back on it, at least as far as the boys were concerned, they had the same general attitude and opinion about the class and the instructor as I did. .....

ZMMQ: You were going to go along with this, but there was this funny Easterner guy. Along with this, can you say what Pirsig was like, how he acted?

Cowboy: Well, .... I don't think I care to .... it was too long ago.

ZMMQ: I'm thinking ..... he says in the ZMM book that he was very intense [and frightening in the class room]. The students were frightened of him, and would keep their distance. Any recollections like that?

Cowboy: Well, that's true. That's true. I won't say we were frightened, but by the same token we kept our distance. The whole class did.

ZMMQ: Because he was just peculiar? Well ..... not peculiar, but just different?

Cowboy: That's right.

ZMMQ: Now, were you worried he would criticize you or get angry with you or anything like that?

Cowboy: Well, no not necessarily.

ZMMQ: Or would he figure out your weak points or push you to do better? Anything along lines like that?

Cowboy: Well .... no, you turned your paper in and he graded it, and I think that's where it was. There wasn't anything necessarily doing better on the assignment or your work. Because I think when I had him, he was the new kid on the block.

ZMMQ: Yes, he was at the school two years altogether, I think. So maybe this was his first year of teaching or something like that?

Cowboy: Well, I can't say that, because when I had him I think it was his first year teaching there at Bozeman. I'm trying to remember what .... OK like what quarter I had him in the class. What I am saying here is, or alluding here is the fact that, OK .....if this was his first quarter to teach? Or was it his second quarter to teach?

ZMMQ: Anyway, he was pretty new at it, and you could tell it. ...... And did you remember any of his marks your papers .... or did he knock you down or anything like that?

Cowboy: English was never my strong suit, I mean .... see ..... well at the time I didn't realize it, I'm dyslexic. And OK you write [the word] "people". And you might get the "e" in front of "l" or you might get the "l" in front of the "e". And spelling is to me,.... I mean, I've never been a good speller. So

ZMMQ: So, that tripped you up right there because any English teacher would have gotten after you on that one.

Cowboy: That's right. I had a heck of a time in all English classes you know. I spent a lot a time lookin’up simple words to try to make sure I got 'em right.

ZMMQ: So, apparently he like other English teachers, you knew you had to be a little careful with things like that. And so you did work at that thing. So he was enough of an English teacher that [the spelling] kept going forward for you. ..... So you don't really remember his demeanor or the way he walked, or the way he talked?

Cowboy: Well, I don't see anything different in the way he walked, I mean, it was ...... you didn't see him in the hallway, you didn't see him out on the street. It was, you go to the class, he may be [already] in the classroom, he may not be in the classroom, and the only time you saw him is when he walked across the classroom from the door to the front of the desk.

ZMMQ: As he came in, any recollections, did he say hello, did he smile?

Cowboy: Oh yah. He was relatively cheerful about that. And he was, you know, he wasn't ever cross or anything like that. Pleasant, but by the same token, .... I don't know, I won't say he had, ..... well he just had a Mid West .... what do I want to say, slang or …

ZMMQ: So, a different accent?

Cowboy: Well, to a point yes! We all have that, I mean, if you're sharp on this, and travel around the country, you can tell the difference between somebody who's comes from Montana, and someone who comes from

ZMMQ: Oh, yes you can pick them out if they are from Brooklyn for example or from Massachusetts., the same area as the Kennedy's. ..... Along this same line [concerning] Pirsig's lectures, would he kind-of just go on-and-on, was he confusing?

Cowboy: Well, he wasn't confusing, but I do remember one particular class, and I don't know what the lecture was. We were all in class sitting there listening to him, and it was the advent of the ball point pen, you know, with the push button on the end. And everybody was sitting there, and everybody was clicking their pens. And he called that to our attention, that everybody was sitting there click-click, click-click.

ZMMQ: Oh yah, great to have a pen!

Cowboy: Well, that's right.

ZMMQ: And so he found that amusing, or he just wanted you to notice it, a new psychological behavior?

Cowboy: No, he found that amusing, but he did call it to our attention, because we were doing it sub consciously.

ZMMQ: Like chewing gum.

Cowboy: Yah Yah. But by the same token, I think that tells you something about his lecture.

ZMMQ: [In other words], you've been doing it out of somewhat boredom, just to get nervous energy ...

Cowboy: That’s right, that’s right.

ZMMQ: Now, some of my questions have to do [or relate to] if you actually read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance book.

Cowboy: No, I haven't.

ZMMQ: And in the book he talks about some of his classroom experiences, some of the reactions of the students. And one of the things he worked on a lot in ZMM [was Quality]. He said he got his start doing this, by teaching in the Bozeman classrooms. He ended up calling it Quality. Does that word bring any memories as regard to Mr. Pirsig? .... Quality?

Cowboy: No. .....

ZMMQ: And Quality for him, he got the idea from another professor there on the Bozeman campus. His first sense of this came from the [Ancient] Greeks . The Greeks had a concept they called Arete, which was Excellence: …. You want to pursue quality existence, you want to do things in a way befitting your best efforts, and you did it because that was your standard built in to you. And you wanted to do it. So, anything like this come out in the classes?

Cowboy: Not .... to my recollection.

ZMMQ: OK, .... do you recollect, or very much know, Sarah Vinke, who was one of the professors there?)

Cowboy: Vinke ..... Yah I remember the name, anyway.

ZMMQ: She was head of the English Department.

Cowboy: Yah.

ZMMQ: And at that time she would, according to Pirsig's book, would say [to him] "Have you been teaching Quality to your students today? Are you bringing out their best writing and so forth. So do you remember anything he mentioned about Quality, or having to write about Quality in any way?

Cowboy: Well .... no. But the thing about Vinke is, the thing I do remember is, if you gave her a quart of Watermelon Pickles, you got an "A" out of it!

ZMMQ: (My laughter. Mrs. [name withheld] mentioned that too, ...... the Watermelon Pickles. ..... )

Cowboy: But the one thing I did ..... that has come to me is the fact that, OK, on this Western History. …. We were doing it for a class assignment, but we were doing his leg-work and his thing. Because he said he was going to write a book, and he wanted us to pick all these different periods of time, and we turned 'em in and .... I won't say he was going to plagiarize what we did, but I think it was, what do you want to say, you got some information for his sake.

ZMMQ: Yes, now did you at the time, or your fellow students, think this was too much of a shortcut on his part, making you do his work, or something like that?

Cowboy: Well, ...... we did at the time, but, by the same token, if you wanted a grade out of the class, you do it.

ZMMQ: So, you questioned that. ...... [Concerning this,] I'm not aware of him coming out with a book like that, or anything in that direction. He did want to .... [publish concerning] .... another person there in the English Department. who [was the adviser to] the students who were of Indian background. And I'm trying to think of that guy's name. ...... It won't come back at the moment.

Cowboy: The only other, ..... there was Greeder [sp? Paul Grieder] and there was Kurtachanoff [sp? Titus Kurtichanov ]. And those are the only people in the English Department that I [know.]

ZMMQ: The guy's name was Vern Dusenberg, I think.

Cowboy: Dusenberg or Dusenberry?

ZMMQ: Dusenberry, there you go. Vern Dusenberry had worked a lot with the Indians and his [self assigned] job was to help them adapt to the campus life. He was also interested in anthropology, so he would visit the Indian families on the reservation, and do whatever he could to help them, and stuff like that. And Pirsig did want to write some of Vern's impressions of anthropology, and how it wasn't a very useful practice, as currently done at that time. [Eventually Vern's anthropology research conclusions were discussed in Pirsig's second book.] .... But I was not aware of Pirsig trying to write up Montana History in any way. So it is very interesting that you are mentioning this, because this is the first I have been aware of the particular angle. So, happy for this input, and this is one good thing to come out of our conversation here.

Cowboy: Well, the thing of it is, it [Montana History] may never have gotten off the ground.

ZMMQ: Yes, and essentially Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance was an outgrowth his pursuit of the [Ancient] Greek practice of Arete: Excellence. As he discussed in ZMM, the Greek Arete or Excellence was the Greek practice of doing your very best. And he started working on that under .... well, at the behest of Sarah Vinke. [It was she] who said "Are you really working on things like this? And he started to look into things like this, and essentially "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" came out of [Sarah Vinke telling Pirsig of] the Greek concept of Excellence, that actually started on the Bozeman Campus! And so, that's the reason for asking: Did he talk about the Greeks or any form of Greek ways of doing things that you recall?

Cowboy: Not that I recall, no.

ZMMQ: Checking my notes here ..... Were his lectures boring, basically alright, you willing to go along with it, other than the fact he was from Minneapolis?

Cowboy: Well, as I recall ..... I don't really recall any [of his] lectures as far as passing on, what do you-want to say, .... information

ZMMQ: Or knowledge?

Cowboy: Or knowledge, .... right. .... It was discussion, read this assignment, or read OK like in Harpers, or have that turned in a certain time ..... but as far as teaching the class, OK like, I'll have to go back to seventh grade, you know, diagramming sentences and this and that, and gaining information that way [as example of appropriate learning], there wasn't any thing like that.

ZMMQ: You don't recall any information you gained from that, [or] from having been in his class. Do you think you came out of his class more educated, or were the better from having been there?

Cowboy: Well, I'm sure that, .... let’s see how do I say this .... I'm sure at the time I may have picked up something, maybe it was just patience with an individual. But as far as being a better person, as far as gaining knowledge, and this kind of thing, I'm not aware of it.

ZMMQ: But as you think backwards, maybe all said and done, he was as effective or as good a professor as the other ones, that you experience around the campus?

Cowboy: Oh .... no, he wasn't. There was, like OK in the Ag [Agriculture] Department, there were good instructors over there. You came out and you understood a lot of things. I think about Gene Payne who was a Range Science individual. We had to memorize range plants, genus and species

ZMMQ: In the Ag Department, Gene Payne, you had to memorize ..... and I'm not understanding the term you used, is it range ...... Say again what Gene was .....

Cowboy: Range Management ..... the study of grasses .... maybe forage.

ZMMQ: And so you had to memorize all the different grasses, and what they looked like, and probably had to identify them on the spot.

Cowboy: That's right. We had to study them and be able to identify them, because he gave us .... he had samples, prepared samples, of each class [of grass], and he would lay them out on the table, and we had to go around, and he gave us something like 2 minutes to identify and write genus and species, and common name. And then we would ..... when we went on field trips we would ..... he would take a little white flag and set by, stick it in the ground by a particular plant. And then we would all take one, OK like we had different 20 plants and there were 20 guys in the class, and each guy would get at a flag and at the sign of go, then we would rotate around the area, and identify the plants.

ZMMQ: I've seen those things similar to that in the Biology Classes .... in Anatomy [Lab] for example.

Cowboy: That's right.

ZMMQ: So, that would have been, for you at the time, practical knowledge, and obviously needful for somebody who might be running a ranch or something like this. And you had to know your poisonous plants and a few things like that. I'm writing this down. So a lot more impact of these more practical classes. And the English didn't turn out to be that practical, and you probably were not that much thrilled, with writing anyway or literature. I know, [because] I went to Engineering School, and that's the way I was [for me back at that time]. .... So, looking at other questions ..... Just on the off chance, do you have any course materials, back at that time, that may have had Pirsig's marks on it?

Cowboy: No.

ZMMQ: Well .... getting toward the end of my list here ..... Let's see ..... Oh, have you since the time you saw Pirsig on the Bozeman Campus, have you heard other people talk about him, or talk about his books, or anything like that?

Cowboy: No. ..... No, I was .... OK, this Motorcycle thing or book or whatever it is, I was surprised his name was on that.

ZMMQ: Somehow you became aware of the book, at some point, and surprised Pirsig had put it out.

Cowboy: That's right. That's right. … You know it’s .... I recognize the name Pirsig just like some of these other instructors like, OK, Dusenberry, I remembered the name, [but] I couldn't put a face with it.

ZMMQ: So, the book came out, and in actual fact, for a while, made it big, and somehow you heard about it being noteworthy that and surprised that Pirsig had written it. Maybe you were surprised Pirsig could do something like that?

Cowboy: Well .... no. People do the darnedest things. I don't get surprised at what they do. .....

ZMMQ: Alright, so, various people can take off and do all kinds of things. ..... I guess I'm getting at the end of my questions, to bring out, the best we can, the memories you have of him. Anything, else you can think of?

Cowboy: Well, no. Just the only, way you want to say, I guess the closing comments I have, is the fact that: Yah …. I was in his class and I was unimpressed with the guy, and it was only for a quarter. and after the quarter was over, you could have put him in a line-up, and I couldn’t've told you who [he] was.

ZMMQ: And that was at least tolerable, and you went on with life. Concerning your own background, did you grow up on a ranch?

Cowboy: Yes, I did.

ZMMQ: So, that running cattle and working [on the ranch and] actually being a cowboy I suppose, and having to repair your own equipment and stuff like that .... ?

Cowboy: That's right.

ZMMQ: And that puts you in a certain mind of what was practical.

Cowboy: That's right.

(And here the tape ran out, so the recording stopped. We were at the end of the conversation anyway, so I didn't attempt to restart it. What is missing is our wrap up statements. My thanking him for his sharing his unique experience, and saying I greatly appreciated his all his help. I told him it was such a pleasure to talk to him and learn of his experiences of Mr. Pirsig and MSC back then. I told him he had been most helpful, plus expressing my hope that he might view my Pirsig web pages, and saying goodbye. )

(Most certainly future generations, for even centuries, will be most thankful that my informant was willing to let us know his unique experience of Robert Pirsig. We are most appreciative of my informant's careful, but frank opinions of his class experience and his professor back then. )

(Thank you!! Thank you!! Thank you!!
Henry Gurr, 17 January, 2008 )

If you know of a person who has known Robert Pirsig, or has had experiences / stories related to book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", ''' please let me know. Click below, left center, for my complete contact information.

For More Information Concerning Montana State College English Dept In the Late 1950's,
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Memories: Dennis Gary BA English MontanaStateCollege1956-60.

1959-61 Montana State College (MSC): Origins Robert Pirsig’s MOQ + MSC English: Sarah Vinke Asks Robert Pirsig Are You Teaching Quality?

Edited by David M. 21June2012. HsgRev2Aug2023.
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